quigonejinn

UMMMM HI YOU GUYS THIS WAS TOTALLY MY REPLY THREAD. When I last looked last night. SHEEZ.

Um, anyway, I demand that every fic y'all have explicitly described or hinted at be written, and now. And add to it a moment about when Tony's doing his coming off the plane thing and the doors open and for a moment Pepper just sees him sitting there in the wheelchair, a freaking wheelchair, and she isn't sure she can handle it, but then, by God, he gets up and tuts his chin and he's going to be okay. He's going to be different.

And then all the Obi stuff.

Least of all how he's gotta be asking when Obediah decided to kill him. And whether Obediah had anything to do with that car crash.

I think I had, like, one line in Posthuman with Tony wondering if his father could have been involved in Obidiah's under the table deals, and that whole history freaking FASCINATES me. Partially because he'll never know, and therefore we get to play around with every possibility ever. Maybe Tony was groomed from the start to be the dimwitted face of Stark Industries, the guy who could say, with a straight face, USA USA USA, and keep the spotlight so that the real business could continue. Or maybe Obidiah cut the break line. Maybe Tony helped build the car they were driving in.

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UMMMM HI YOU GUYS THIS WAS TOTALLY MY REPLY THREAD. When I last looked last night. SHEEZ.

JOIN US. IT'S NICE AND TOASTY/ANGSTY UP IN HERE.

Maybe Tony helped build the car they were driving in.

Um. YES. I have shite memory, do you remember what they said in the beginning of the film? At what ages Tony built his first circuit, engine, etc.? Or am I misremembering? I had an aborted "Pepper Quits" (I have a whole FILE. It's labeled "Tony Is An Ass" and it makes me warm every time I see it in my google docs) snippit where Drunk!Tony throws his accomplishments in Pepper's face when she dares point out that maybe one man with a shiny suit can't solve the entire mid-east crisis alone, and he just ends up being petty and as human as Pepper just pointed out he was. I love Petulant!Tony, what can I say.

Maybe Tony was groomed from the start to be the dimwitted face of Stark Industries, the guy who could say, with a straight face, USA USA USA, and keep the spotlight so that the real business could continue.

Duuuuude, I didn't even think of that, that Obie agreed to Tony being the head because he thought he was easily manipulated and a little stupid--

(sidenote: typing with one hand, having deep thoughts, and eating carrots with a fork = Massive. Fail. Ewwww slimy veggies all over the keyboard.)

--and like

quigonejinn pointed out, Tony ends up being the real deal, screwing up the plan, and forcing Obie's hand.

I love that idea that Tony will never truly know, that the threat that one possibility is that Obie didn't kill his parents, but just by being around Tony long enough makes people come to hate him enough to want to/try to kill him. It's gotta be a TERRIFYING thought for Tones, and would echo into how he approaches his relationships with Rhodey and Pepper and EVERYONE EVER. Except for Jarvis, he knows exactly what makes Jarvis tick, because Tony coded him himself.

God. My brain. Is broken. You people are making me think. During a work day. Have you no SHAME?

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I'm pretty sure it's first circuit board at four, first engine at six, I think. A shot of him with Bill Gates accompanies the circuit board, and the shot of Tony with Daddy on the motorcycle for the engine.

BEHOLD, THE POWER OF OBSESSIVE VIDDING. But yeah, whatever time scale you use, Tony has got to be competent of working on a car by the time he's nineteen.

There are angst shoals for either answer to whether he worked on the car or not, really.

Also, aldkjf how did I miss that in your fic,

gabby_silang? Oh man. I can totally see it making Tony sit bolt upright in the middle of the night.

And on top of that, the idea of Dad basically thinking that Tony was just going to be useless fluff breaks my heart on a level I can't even articulate. I mean, it's pretty clear that Tony idolizes Dad on a level that he can't even articulate -- what's that thing he says? I never got to ask Dad about it. As if Dad has the definitive answer to one of the most significant questions of modern ethics.

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Drunk!Tony throws his accomplishments in Pepper's face when she dares point out that maybe one man with a shiny suit can't solve the entire mid-east crisis alone

OH MY EFFING GOD. I can see this so vividly. And he ends up SPITTING and then he's printing off his own Wikipedia page and leaving it on her desk, and goes from, like the Apogee to how many jager bombs he can do in five minutes and how long he can go without sleep because to him that actually DOES mean that he should be able to save the world. Why not? There hasn't been something he couldn't do before.

Okay, taking that into account, I cannot see how movieverse Tony is not dead within at least three years after Iron Man.

Tony ends up being the real deal, screwing up the plan, and forcing Obie's hand.

And isn't it so telling how Obi (I spell it like the Kenobi, yes) totally didn't see that coming? I love his manner in the scene just after Tony's returning press conference, and arm slung over his shoulder, talking to him like a kid, and you can see Tony take on that role of the kid who'll let himself be herded, just stepping into that easily, letting Obi take care of things even though he feel so strongly about this one thing, still Obi's got that pull over him.

but just by being around Tony long enough makes people come to hate him enough to want to/try to kill him

I don't think we (WE THE INNER IM FANDOM CABAL) have even begun to touch on how unimaginably furious he must be, deep, steaming down there. A teenage kind of anger when you realize the world isn't the way you thought it was, that you can't have everything, that you have to get a job, that your parents aren't rich, that they're flawed and sometimes awful, that you yourself can and have hurt people, that other people hurt you for no good reason and the universe doesn't care. Everything was a lie and he's got to be so, so, deep down pissed.

And now he has a big metal suit with rockets on it.

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and you can see Tony take on that role of the kid who'll let himself be herded, just stepping into that easily, letting Obi take care of things even though he feel so strongly about this one thing, still Obi's got that pull over him.

GOD SO TRUE. He just looks like a beaten down puppy, with his lame arm and all the scratches, and GOD. It must feel nice having someone take care of you after those 3 months, because like

quigonejinn pointed out, Obi (now you have me doing it too, dammit) is as close to a father as he's going to get and after being unable to save Yinsin, having someone take care of this one thing has to be nice, having that chance to rest, even for a moment. Because Tony thinks he can only get just moments, because Tony thinks he's too smart (but in reality, just too stubborn) to let his guard down, because he fully believes no one can really think on his level, no one can see the whole picture, despite time and time again Tony gets into the scrapes he does because he can't do exactly that.

I want Movieverse!Tony to meet Mr. Fantastic, if only so he can see his sort of behavior from the outside. Also, because I can see Tony throwing a complete snitfit after a meeting with Mr. Fantastic at SHIELD, and Pepper looking up from her blackberry and smirking so fucking hard that Tony warns her that her face might freeze that way.

sidenote: I was just thinking about this the other day, how there are very little women super-geniuses in the Marvel U. DC has Oracle, Dr. Light (the girl one, not super-fin rapist dude) but Marvel U has...I can't think of any other than Sue Storm for a brief moment in the Ultimates universe (under Ellis, Millar came on and Sue Storm turned to porn face instead of science.) That kinda depresses me, yo.

A teenage kind of anger when you realize the world isn't the way you thought it was, that you can't have everything, that you have to get a job, that your parents aren't rich, that they're flawed and sometimes awful, that you yourself can and have hurt people, that other people hurt you for no good reason and the universe doesn't care. Everything was a lie and he's got to be so, so, deep down pissed.

And now he has a big metal suit with rockets on it.

I'm pretty much in love with that whole paragraph, just so you know, because YES. YES. Because if Tony was a 13 year old girl, he'd hang outside of the mall's Hot Topic and write deep poetry about how no one understands his pain, and he wears black so people will know the color of his sooooul.

But seriously, after Gulmira, and during the Iron Monger fight on the freeway, the potential for collateral damage was so crazy high, I couldn't wrap my brain around Rhodey letting Tony continue as Iron Man. It's not just that he's not formally trained, it's that he's not wired to actually see people as people. For god's sake, he has his suit differentiate between enemies and civilians. It's terrifying the thought of that kind of guy with that sort of weaponry trying to prove to the world that he's good by blowing shit up.

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It is both totally believable and totally hilarious that in, let's say ten years' time or so, Tony will be Director of SHIELD. And his big crazy brain and his proto-soul as I think

quigonejinn put it elsewhere, will have all that and a bag of HELICARRIER aimed at everything he thinks is wrong with the world. Oh fuck, Tony. It's not him who's lucky he has Pepper. It's the rest of the world who should thank GOD he has her.

It's terrifying the thought of that kind of guy with that sort of weaponry trying to prove to the world that he's good by blowing shit up.

ESPECIALLY terrifying because Tony is the kind of person who will never believe anyone really actually likes him. Just that maybe they like the version they've seen on tv, or on the cover of a magazine, or the guy they read about in Forbes, or maybe they like his haircut or the line of his suit, maybe they like his way with the ladies, maybe women like him when he's naked or when they're naked on his expensive sheets, on the hood of his expensive cars, spread out on his expensive carpets, but nobody really likes him. He'll think that, and then have no idea who the guy he really wants them to like is. What he's like. So he'll try to build it. Again.

You are totally right about girl geniuses. I think. Off the top of my head. Also, at WisCon, I was on this Buffy panel and realized the other thing that both the big two don't have is a superheroine with a kickass origin story. I mean, big blockbucker superhero movie, and big bestselling books are all about a hero and their origin story and how awesome it is. But the ladies, we are lacking in that. Therefore I plan to come up with one or two. This idea is TM me, no stealing.

Edited Date: 2008-05-27 10:10 pm (UTC)

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I keep telling myself I'll break away from this thread and go back to work, but NO. You keep writing awesome mini fics like this:

Just that maybe they like the version they've seen on tv, or on the cover of a magazine, or the guy they read about in Forbes, or maybe they like his haircut or the line of his suit, maybe they like his way with the ladies, maybe women like him when he's naked or when they're naked on his expensive sheets, on the hood of his expensive cars, spread out on his expensive carpets, but nobody really likes him.

And then I'm required by fucking law to come back and make with the flappy/happy hands. Because yes, when it comes down to it Tony just wants to know someone can love him for him, and not because the rest of the world tells them they should. But Tony's been defined by others for so long, he probably doesn't actually have the tools for any sort of real self-actualization. God, I don't remember which of you two crazy geniuses mentioned it first, but what sort of dad lets their son be on the cover of Popular Mechanics at that young of an age? Not. Healthy. Not even close.

Oh fuck, Tony. It's not him who's lucky he has Pepper. It's the rest of the world who should thank GOD he has her.

THAT. THAT RIGHT THERE. That's why they can't work, because a healthy relationship has to be equal on some level, and one person can't be the world's greatest weapon's moral compass. Poor Pepper, she's Jiminy fucking Cricket and Tony just wants to be a real boy and she's going to get CRUSHED.

Oh, now this thread is killing my soul guys. Thanks.

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what sort of dad lets their son be on the cover of Popular Mechanics at that young of an age? Not. Healthy. Not even close.

This is why, I think, Lindsay Lohan and Tony Stark are my crazy crack pairing of doom. I'm totally convinced now that Howard Stark was a shitty parent who didn't come close to putting his son first, and well. We all know about Casa Lohan and the crazy.

Just that maybe they like the version they've seen on tv, or on the cover of a magazine, or the guy they read about in Forbes,

Which is not only the greatest beginning to a minific ever, but it also ties in SO WELL to why he keeps making robots ~~and clones~~. It's the emo underpinnings behind why Tony Stark is such a fucking crazy control freak. He can't be sure. Especially not now, post-suit. Even more now, and I bet that, in his rush of righteousness and despite his GIANT BRAIN OF DOOM, he doesn't feel it eating away at him.

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Have you noticed how I can only write in either, high-flung fic-voice, or, like...all caps? Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Gabby. Only ladies.

Poor Pepper, she's Jiminy fucking Cricket and Tony just wants to be a real boy and she's going to get CRUSHED.

OH GOD MY WHOLE HEART.

So this might get incoherent, but I had this conversation with some people about how writing is my THING, and um, a certain, um, boyfriend of mine doesn't have THING and doesn't really get what it means and kinda feels weird that I am totally willing to turn hermit and ignore all human interaction and forgo all other pleasures if I can just WRITE because it's my THING. It's my God. And then they were all "well maybe you're his Thing right now" and we all agreed that a person should never be your Thing. It happens, but it's never a good idea.

Now, Tony, he has a Thing. Pepper, she has Tony. But like me and writing, Tony's Thing will always come first, always, in one way or another. And that's no good for Pepper, no matter how much she might tell herself she's willing to give. At some point, it's too much for anyone.

UGGGGH I need to stop this, shower, and start writing my demon in a bottle thing NOW. YOU PEOPLE WHAT HAVE YOU DONE.

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I am totally willing to turn hermit and ignore all human interaction and forgo all other pleasures if I can just WRITE because it's my THING.

Dude. I spent three years of college in a room the size of a refrigerator box and, uh, broke up with my fiance for reasons including, though definitely not limited to, his failure to support my crackfaced addiction to writing, including fandom writing. SO. I HEAR THIS SENTIMENT.

Tony, at the place he's in immediately post-IM, just isn't in a good place for a long-term relationship with Pepper. Period. I mean, yeah, I can imagine the kind of girlfriend of superhero thing working for a while, but in a way, that would be lessening Pepper's involvement in Tony's life. She's intimately involved in what he does. She's part of the superhero narrative, and that's the way it should be, but if things play out with Tony the way we've been speculating in this uber-thread? My God.

For the love of God, somebody write some happy Pepper-and-that-cute-agent-from-SHIELD. Quick.

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For the love of God, somebody write some happy Pepper-and-that-cute-agent-from-SHIELD. Quick.

GOD I LOVED THAT MAN. Seriously, I thought she was going to ask him out when she followed him to the door in the end. And she should. Because he's adorably cute and straight forward, and that's gotta be fucking refreshing. Pepper doesn't have to worry about double-meaning with him, just weird, unnecessarily complicated acronyms.

Re: second time through = golden. i&amp;amp;#39;m thinking about going time #3.

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Now, Tony, he has a Thing. Pepper, she has Tony. But like me and writing, Tony's Thing will always come first, always, in one way or another.

YES. EXACTLY. THAT'S IT.

Because Tony is Pepper's work, and how the heck do you separate that? I have this whole protofic brewing about how Pepper got into the PA business to make rich contacts, because she ultimately wants to get into charity work and she's knows big business means big tax brackets and a whole lot of people wanting to donate to get tax breaks and she's always been very good at organizing things. In my head Pepper is the one that organized the whole Fireman's Ball thing, as a chance to test herself, and in some point in the future she actually sees herself doing that full time instead. She probably already has a file of potential candidates for her position. But when Tony outs himself as Iron Man, that window, that chance to get out gets slimmer and slimmer each day, because now she is genuinely worried about Tony, and on some level she probably hates it, hates being trapped by her feelings and by Tony's needs and her innate sense of right and wrong.

Oh, Pep, what have you gotten yourself into?

UGGGGH I need to stop this, shower, and start writing my demon in a bottle thing NOW. YOU PEOPLE WHAT HAVE YOU DONE.

DON'T BLAME ME. I JUST WORK HERE- oh. Wait.

Dammit.

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Okay, I just couldn't keep quiet. (I'm feeling like I've just found my people!) You don't know me, and you may not even want to friend me back (because seriously, if ya'll can have this kind of freaking awesome discourse about IM, you all must be on my flist), but I just have to dip in and speak because I ... I can't stop myself.

Maybe Tony was groomed from the start to be the dimwitted face of Stark Industries

Oh, I think definitely this. I think Obediah quickly, deftly, and purposefully stepped into Dad's shoes. Of course he provided love and comfort to the grieving son ... but he also started providing everything needed to induce/feed any and all addictive tendencies in an emotionally-damaged, immature young man (booze, sex, gambling, you-name-it). Because what better way to control Tony? What better way to prevent him from ever actually maturing ... keeping him the "boy genius" who was satisfied with playing with his "toys": the engineering feats that made SI shareholders rich and the addictions that kept him in line.

And it worked. Until Afghanistan. Until Tony, in his mid-30's, did in 3 months what should have happened at a younger age over a longer period of time ... he "matured". He came back a changed man (though still and even more so messed up) ... to an unchanged world. He unwittingly fell into old habits (the whole sinking gratefully into Obie's care and embrace before the press conference) but expecting something different, something that fit his new "reality".

The first real kick was Rhodey's rejection in the hangar. Totally blind-sided Tony. Like a kid who's best friend had been happily playing with him one minute and then slapped him, made fun of him, and kicked him out of the treehouse the next. Serious ow.

And then he actually "saw" Pepper for the first time. Fell into his old habits of stalk-and-acquire. But his old habits didn't sit right with his new self, though he didn't consciously realize it. I loved the scene on the balcony where Pepper succumbs to his unholy magnetism and leans in for the kiss, but he's the one who stands there like a deer in the headlights, not jumping on the opportunity (like normal). Then gratefully running away to get drinks while trying, on some level, to process what in the hell had just happened ... and then the photos. Getting ripped from his confusing "new" world to be thrown with PTSD-intensity back into captivity/survival world.

Finally, he puts two and two together, which intensifies the conflict and confusion in his head and tosses in an increasing dose of pain. And then Obie tells him the truth. With a no-longer-caring "embrace" ... in a mean, ugly voice ... and with eyes that no longer try to hide his true feelings for this stupid child-in-a-man's-body who had always been a nuisance and had now actually messed with Obediah's world. "Bled out" is such an accurate description of Tony's shock.

Can I just say now that when Obie called him "a little prick" later, my heart hurt a lot. I can imagine that some part of Tony probably didn't care if the blast from the reactor killed him (Tony).

[sighs heavily] Thank you for letting me join, if only for a moment.

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DEAR GOD. DID YOU JUST WADE THROUGH THAT ENTIRE THREAD OF CRACKFACEDRY?

where Pepper succumbs to his unholy magnetism

Ahahah. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Either

gabby_silang or

dafnap in Son of Uberthread over on

dafnap's LJ pointed out that in that scene, it kind alooks like he has his hand on the bare skin of her back. Tony Stark transmits lust by touch, yo.

Can I just say now that when Obie called him "a little prick" later, my heart hurt a lot.

GOD. As you have probably figured out from this thread, I could write 1MM fics about how betrayed Tony felt by Obediah doing that. God. It's. Words fail me for how much I love Tony Stark's daddy issues. :D

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Um ... I think I shall plead the Fifth. [coughs]

it kind alooks like he has his hand on the bare skin of her back

I keep staring at that scene (heh), and I just can't decide. But in my book, the man can quite probably transmit orgasms by touch. (Did I just say that out loud?)

Words fail me for how much I love Tony Stark's daddy issues.

Oh, I'm right there with ya. (And do let me know if you need a beta for those fics ... I come with references. -g-) But I find it fascinating that he locked Obie out of his Mark II suit project from the get-go. (While Fic Bunny #47 is Tony explaining the suit thing to Pepper.) Methinks that on some level (and probably all along) Tony knew he was being handled and always rebelled against it.

One of the notes I took last night was "Prodigal Son". Which leads me to think he not only grieved but he bolted after his parents' deaths. Money bets that Obie reeled him back in, probably pouncing on and ramping up whatever piqued Tony's interest at that age and in that rebellious state. And probably hated every little bit of "pandering" he had to do because he needed Tony - Tony's genius - to build his own fortune and power. I think it was probably never about Tony. And it may never even have been about Dad.

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. I think it was probably never about Tony. And it may never even have been about Dad.

SHIT. SHIT.

OF COURSE. YOU ARE BRILLIANT.

I mean, I'm not sure if I'm totally convinced that Tony only came back because of Obediah since I read Tony as having such a THING about Dad's Legacy and, also, because underneath the playboy good times, Tony is kind of an obsessive workaholic. (You've just spent three intense-ass months, welding for dear life, in a cold cave. What do you do on returning to civilization? Get a cheeseburger, have a press conference, and then go back to a better equipped cave. With cheeseburgers.)

But yeah. You're absolutely right that it makes complete sense that Obediah had to hold off on whacking Tony/why he had to include Tony despite probably wanting to keep alllllllllll the power for himself -- Tony is the brains behind the operation. He's the Stark behind Stark Industries. It'd be like Berkshire Hathaway without Warren Buffett, but if Berkshire Hathaway where a tech company desperately dependent on innovation for its business model and if Warren Buffett were like the second coming of Niels Bohr and miracle year Isaac Newton all in one.

MAN. BRILLIANT.

The other major lightning bolt re: Obediah that hit this morning was

obsession_inc up above talking about the probable age difference between O and Howard Stark. I mean, going by moive-canon, he had ot have been about 15 years younger. It's totally conceivable that he expected to be handed the power if/when Howard retired or died. But no, the controlling interest goes to TONY, the scapegrace son.

God, I love this stage of fandom. :D

And re: beta'ing. Thankee very much kindly for the offer. I'm a ready, fire, aim kinda approach (like Tony! only with less genius!) so none of my fics get beta'd. Ever. I'm way too impatient. If you ever have suggestions or comments or "uh, that's a really embarrassing typo" after the fact, though, totally leave me a comment or whatever. :D

Edited Date: 2008-05-29 01:10 pm (UTC)

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YOU ARE BRILLIANT.

I think it no coincidence that this comment (and no other) popped into my email twice. Hee!

Also, thank you.

I'm not sure if I'm totally convinced that Tony only came back because of Obediah

Probably not totally because of, no. But Tony probably started using the word "harangue" long before he hired Pepper.

Tony: This is haranguement.

Pepper: I- What?

Tony: Haranguement. I should be able to sue you for that. Probably ...

Pepper: That's not a word. And ...

Tony: ... put you in jail. Then ...

Pepper: ... you cannot sue me for it. If it ...

Tony: ... I could smuggle a file in so ...

Pepper: ... was a word, then it's in my contract ...

Tony: ... you could escape and run away with me.

Pepper: ... because that's what you hired me to do. What?

Tony: [smirks]

Get a cheeseburger, have a press conference, and then go back to a better equipped cave. With cheeseburgers.

Ha! And a prettier assistant.

Obediah had to hold off on whacking Tony

Oh, seriously. He couldn't kill, maim, or otherwise majorly impair the golden goose. But he could control the golden goose. Cajole it and clip its wings without it realizing what was happening.

I wonder, though, why Obediah chose then to do it. Was Tony getting too out of control? Too caught up in the addictions? Or was he finally wanting more of the pie than Obie was willing to dole out? Did he think there was no way to top the Jericho?

the probable age difference between O and Howard Stark

Yeah, I saw that. And it makes some painful sense. And with Tony still so young, Obie not only wasn't the favored "son" but was left to be the nursemaid. It had to rankle. Beeg time.

God, I love this stage of fandom.

Like I said before, stepping into these kinds of discussions is like finding my people! Especially with the messed up psychological stuff. It's so my thing.

If you ever have suggestions or comments or "uh, that's a really embarrassing typo" after the fact, though, totally leave me a comment or whatever.

No problemo. I'm totally okay with being a retro-beta. ;^)

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XD It showed up in your box twice because I went back and edited it. I think that makes comment notifications re-send or sthg.

I wonder, though, why Obediah chose then to do it. Was Tony getting too out of control? Too caught up in the addictions? Or was he finally wanting more of the pie than Obie was willing to dole out? Did he think there was no way to top the Jericho?

Yeah, that's an interesting line of inquiry. To me, logically, there are a couple of broad categories for explanations -- either something specifically happened to me O want to axe T at that point, or it was in the plans all along to axe T once Stark Industries got to a certain point. Or, O has been trying to axe Tony for a while, but assassination is tricky business. (Muscle issues, I'm guessing? It ain't easy finding somebody discreet who'll do the dirty deed. Apparently, there's an in-joke somewhere in the plane bit referring to an effort that Comics-O made against Tony.)

All of them work for me as a writer, but the "something happened" requires invention of that something, and it needs to be damn convincing. The "Company is strong enough to survive w/out Tony" has the benefit of fitting with corporate thinking, but you do have to do proper fore-grounding buildup for why O is such a bloodless bastard. One of the weak points of the movie was, for me, how they never really explained O's motivations.

And as for the "wanted to, but couldn't execute" has two subcategories -- one is because of incompetence, and the other is because of lack of technical expertise.

Hm. It's an open field, and there's definitely, definitely room for more than one fic there.

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obsession-inc.livejournal.com

I'll posit a third option: O appears to have lost his damn mind.

"For years I've been holding you up... I've built this company for NOTHING! And nothing's going to stand in my way. Least of all you."

I... I have no idea what that last line means, so, never mind that, but I can hash out that a) O thinks he's the one who built the company, and from a purely business standpoint that's probably exactly true, and b) he's really resentful of Tony, seems to feel like Tony is the weak link somehow. It's like some kind of weird corporate political gamesmanship: who's responsible for the success of the company, the businessman or the idea man? Clearly, Obadiah thinks it's the businessman, i.e. himself.

Which gives me an idea: okay, so Stark Industries is clearly created by Tony's father after WWII. Obadiah is younger than Stark, so he wouldn't be on the scene then. Could it be that Stark was not a great businessman, either-- just an idea man? who stumbled along in business keeping the company barely afloat? And that Stane came on the scene and made the place a success in the late fifties or early sixties?

THAT would explain a lot about his attitude. Why he's chosen to kill Tony, though, is a whole 'nother ball of wax, but clearly he does see him as useful but expendable.

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AHAHAH. I think I just replied to you above about this. very. thing.

The "O lost his goddamn mind" theme is probably the one that coheres the best with movie canon (and the scatterbrained ???? PROFIT model you posited up above), but man. I have to say it doesn't offer much meat for writing.

Though, OK. I totally dig your idea that Stark Sr. blew as a businessman and that the firm didn't really take off until Obediah stepped in. The novelization suggests that Stark Sr's major contributions were manufacturing, not in R&D, so it makes sense that they might struggle to redefine themselves. And it explains why Stark Sr. might mount a full-court press of OMG MY SON IS A GENIUS as a PR kinda thing as part of re-trenching. And coheres with that line about how nobody has made advances in arc reactor tech since the 1970s.

And it's been pointed out among the original participants o' doom that maybe, Daddy Stark and Obediah had been dealing under the table together.

Re: second time through = golden. i&amp;amp;#39;m thinking about going time #3.

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Re: second time through = golden. i&amp;#39;m thinking about going time #3.

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besyd.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-05-29 08:52 pm (UTC) - Expand

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(So glad you joined in! And so glad my Internet squeaked out a little bandwidth for me.)

"For years I've been holding you up... I've built this company for NOTHING! And nothing's going to stand in my way. Least of all you."

Actually, I think I can twist it around into a little sense (an appropriately placed "now" would have made it all so clearer -heh-). For thirty years he's built the company but who gets the glory? Tony. Now he's going to take what's duly his, and if no one else can kill Tony, he will. (Okay, that's my take at trying to make sense out of a madman's words. Ha!)

who's responsible for the success of the company, the businessman or the idea man? Clearly, Obadiah thinks it's the businessman, i.e. himself.

Or ... Obie thought he had pulled together a team of truly crack scientists/engineers who could do what Tony does (oh yeah right, like there could be two Nikola Teslas living in one lifetime?) and could, therefore, toast the Tone. And of course when they failed him so spectacularly toward the end with not only not being able to miniaturize the arc reactor but saying it was impossible, he jumped the Stshark to uberebil.

Re: second time through = golden. i&#39;m thinking about going time #3.

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dafnap.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-05-29 09:00 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: second time through = golden. i&#39;m thinking about going time #3.

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obsession-inc.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-05-29 10:28 pm (UTC) - Expand

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obsession-inc.livejournal.com

The other major lightning bolt re: Obediah that hit this morning was obsession_inc up above talking about the probable age difference between O and Howard Stark. I mean, going by moive-canon, he had ot have been about 15 years younger. It's totally conceivable that he expected to be handed the power if/when Howard retired or died. But no, the controlling interest goes to TONY, the scapegrace son.

Okay, I'm just now wading through this whole thing and SERIOUSLY I almost had a heart attack when I saw my name. !!

Seriously, this has been consuming my whole brain for a few days now and nobody I know will talk to me about it so CAN I TALK TO YOU GUYS?? ::pleading puppy-dog look::

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JUMP ON IN. THE WATER IS WARM, AND THE CABANA SERVOS HAD THEIR FIRE EXTINGUISHERS TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM.

(Seriously, though. It's totally cool with me. My general policy on this LJ is that as long as you can see the convo, wade in with both feet.)

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obsession-inc.livejournal.com

OH THANK GOD. ::falls down::

Also gotta think about the age difference between Stark and Stark's wife (am I remembering Howard and Maria or did I make that up?), because she can't be giving birth at 50+ in 1971 so she HAS to be, like, half his age. Which means that there are all sorts of ways that can go: Obadiah is bereft because he's been the buddy up until this point, and hates her, which is a) because of the Daddy Stark / Obadiah Stane fun that was happening until she ruined the party, or b) he wants her for his own and never gets over that and totally could have been Tony's dad or c) OT3.

Of course there's always the possibility that Obi killed them, and is annoyed that Tony ends up in charge, but that could easily relate back to either a) or b) with either Howard or Maria ending up killed by accident because he or she wasn't supposed to be in the car that night.

UM. I have more thoughts on Stane specifically but I am being forced to go to lunch.

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