(no subject)

[quigonejinn]

Freedom Hangs Like Heaven.

Iron Man set to Iron and Wine.
20MB, XviD or play in VLC

I'm going to end up recutting this when the DVD comes up because right now, there's this CERTAIN SCENE where SOME FUCKING DOUCHEBAG decides to HANG HIS FUCKING HAND off the side of the CAMERA and then some other asshole walks across andf;lkjgdf. I couldn't figure out a way to cut around it, so that scene sucks. And there's one bit where Rhodey is a talking head, but I figured that I've wasted a week of my life already on this.

So yes. Iron Man and Iron and Wine with Calexico production. And just ignore the fact that they use the wrong reign/reins on that Forbes cover. XD

Comments

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[quigonejinn.livejournal.com]

JUMP ON IN. THE WATER IS WARM, AND THE CABANA SERVOS HAD THEIR FIRE EXTINGUISHERS TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM.

(Seriously, though. It's totally cool with me. My general policy on this LJ is that as long as you can see the convo, wade in with both feet.)

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[obsession-inc.livejournal.com]

OH THANK GOD. ::falls down::

Also gotta think about the age difference between Stark and Stark's wife (am I remembering Howard and Maria or did I make that up?), because she can't be giving birth at 50+ in 1971 so she HAS to be, like, half his age. Which means that there are all sorts of ways that can go: Obadiah is bereft because he's been the buddy up until this point, and hates her, which is a) because of the Daddy Stark / Obadiah Stane fun that was happening until she ruined the party, or b) he wants her for his own and never gets over that and totally could have been Tony's dad or c) OT3.

Of course there's always the possibility that Obi killed them, and is annoyed that Tony ends up in charge, but that could easily relate back to either a) or b) with either Howard or Maria ending up killed by accident because he or she wasn't supposed to be in the car that night.

UM. I have more thoughts on Stane specifically but I am being forced to go to lunch.

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[quigonejinn.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's Howard and Maria in comic canon, but I don't know if they ever nail it down in the movie. They might during the Apogee awards? I don't remember.

And yeah, there's got to be a signficant age gap between them. I don't know if I'd go double in age, though, unless we're working with a v. young mother -- Tony's dad is shown as vigorous late middle age in the photos with Tony and Obediah. This parses with the Manhattan data point if we assume that he was a young man in his early twenties.

And yeah. There's some itneresting stuff to be thrown there -- I love how Obediah's posture with Tony in that early scene of pain and deception echos his posture with Tony's dad in that photo.

Also. if Tony's much-admired Dad didn't marry until late in life, leads to some interesting thoughts about whether Tony's playboy-ing is, in some way, modeled after Daddy's.

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[obsession-inc.livejournal.com]

Also. if Tony's much-admired Dad didn't marry until late in life, leads to some interesting thoughts about whether Tony's playboy-ing is, in some way, modeled after Daddy's.

!! This is a fascinating idea. I am having a moment where I am torn between "which means he will settle down and have genius babies, yay!" and "oh dear God somebody is going to write babyfic about this in about three minutes now". Uh oh.

And, yeah, good point re: probably not HALF his age, so... probably an age gap similar to Howard/Obadiah.

Speaking of whom, I'm still trying to hash out Obadiah's plot. Not only do I have no idea why he would kill Tony NOW, I keep going through his whole thing at the end and wondering what the hell he was planning on doing. It is very Underpants Gnomes.

1) Build own super-suit.
2) Get the miniature arc reactor from Tony to power it, thus happily killing him in the process.
3) ???
4) Profit!

I seriously do not see the long-term plan here, particularly if he's just been reported to the government and is going to be in deep shit in the U.S. after this. Clearly he can't stay with Stark Industries. But then, clearly Stark Industries can't be selling weapons directly to terrorists, either; does he have a shell company set up in a third-world country to launder the weapons/money, which would then be perfect for building the Iron Monger suit and arc reactors and selling them? I am so confused.

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[quigonejinn.livejournal.com]

Hush, child. Question not the logic of Jon Favreau.

But no, seriously. That isn't exactly a viable business model, is it? Maybe he wanted to kill Pepper so that she wouldn't be able to tell the government? (Because he arguably doesn't know that she's sleeping with SHIELD now.) But then again, it's not just Obediah who incites the ???????? dafnap pointed out that it makes no sense whatsoever for Tony's rresponse to being locked up with missle parts is to build a walking suit of plate armor with a side-arm firethrower action.

Somewhere else in this thread (possibly even with you, but with besyd, I suspect), I tried to break down the WHY KILL HIM NOW???? thing down into its logical possibilites. It seems that one of the three must obtain:

1. Obediah didn't want to kill him before, but something made him want to kill Tony now.

2. Obediah has wanted to kill Tony before, but wasn't able to, and he is now able to (either economically, because SI would've gone belly up, or because he didn't have the muscle to do it)

3. Obediah has been trying to kill Tony for a while, but assassinating dudes is hard.

I'll buy fic out of any one of those categories, but they each have their difficulties. For 1, you'd need a damn convincing event and a decent amount of Obediah personal history invention. For 2, you'd need to invent a fairly complicated factual history and (less than in 1, I suspect) personal history. 3 is probably the easiest to do, since the premise is that Obediah has always been ebils, but you need an explanation for why he is so hardcore and, even harder, WHY HE SUCKS SO HARD AT IT.

I mean, really, would it be that hard to lace Tony's whiskey with some weapons-grade animal tranquilizers? Nobody would suspect a goddamn thing.

The babyfic is already out there, I think. dafnap and gabby_silang were remarking on it kind of, like, I don't know. Fascinated horror.

Personally, I think Tony would make such a shitty, shitty father. Yeah, he'd love the tykes to death, but he would have NO SENSE OF BOUNDARIES or APPROPRIATENESS. Whiskey in the formula bottle! Strippers at the third birthday party!

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[dafnap.livejournal.com]

JUMPING BACK IN EVEN THOUGH I'M AT WORK AND SHOULD KNOW BETTER BY NOW.

Lunch breaks are cruel.

ANYWAY. First off:

(Because he arguably doesn't know that she's sleeping with SHIELD now.)

Hee! Because she is! (sidenote: how adorable was Pepper's interaction with Coulson at the plant? "Oooh. Is that a super-high tech lock picking thing?" Because she's been around Tony long enough to find machines neeeeeeeat.)

But secondly, re: the when did Obi decide to choke the golden goose. The more I think about it, the more I'm figuring that Afghanistan was the window of opportunity he was looking for, for awhile. Tony Stark is probably insured and lawyered up the ass, and there's probably a shedton of clauses in all those contracts and shit that specify specific sort of instances where the company would revert back to Obie. I'm guessing conveniently "accidental" deaths that a guy like Tony might get into, like car crashes or overdoses or being smothered between a woman's thighs, are effectively ruled out since Tony's lawyers (who care more about his safety than Tony seems to most of the time, much to everyone's chagrin) probably have red-flags attached to those.

But something like Afghanistan? Sort of like the presidency, I'm guessing before taking trips to war-torn countries to sell weapons, Tony signs shit that transfers temporary control to Obie while he's out of the country, and BOY. Maybe those are the papers Pepper had him sign before she hustled him out? (Oh, man, poor PEPPER.)

Man, that's long and convoluted I know, but super-billionaire CEOs probably have bookcases full of if-then clauses for shit like this.

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[obsession-inc.livejournal.com]

I like it! Any time the answer is "because of money" (or "because of lawyers"), there is a ring of truth to it. You have attached it to BOTH, so this is now becoming my own personal canon.

conveniently "accidental" deaths that a guy like Tony might get into, like car crashes or overdoses or being smothered between a woman's thighs

::cackle:: Oh, awesome. And I like the whole thought: "in case of this, check it out A WHOLE LOT". I'd add that it might not be lawyers, exactly, but that the military, who has a whole lot riding on the whole idea of keeping Tony Stark alive and exclusively on their side*, might be the leaning force on that one.

But something like Afghanistan? Sort of like the presidency, I'm guessing before taking trips to war-torn countries to sell weapons, Tony signs shit that transfers temporary control to Obie while he's out of the country, and BOY. Maybe those are the papers Pepper had him sign before she hustled him out? (Oh, man, poor PEPPER.)

BRAIN JUST BLEW UP. Okay, I am eyeing this with such interest right now, you have no idea. Oh, PEPPER. Yes, I can totally see this happening. It's probably rote by now. They've probably done it eighty times. And this time, the trap was sprung! ...because, yeah, think about it, first Obadiah would think "wow, it would be great if he'd just die on one of these, because then there wouldn't be a question of who'd succeed him like there was with Howard" (wait, I just made that up, but it's another wonderful thing along the lines of him taking out his post-Howard's-death frustrations on Tony) and then having to get 10 Rings to agree to this (which does beg the question of which came first: dealing under the table, or wanting to kill Tony?), and then setting up the trip.

Add in that, knowing Tony, he may well have skipped some of these trips at the last minute in the past. Obadiah has got to have serious ulcers by now. I could almost feel BAD for him.

* Incidentally, and not in keeping with the military-is-good-folks theme in the movie, if the military knew they couldn't get Tony back, and knew he was building weapons for terrorists... does he become expendable? Like, shoot-to-kill expendable? I can totally see that happening, in a scary way.

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[dafnap.livejournal.com]

but that the military, who has a whole lot riding on the whole idea of keeping Tony Stark alive and exclusively on their side*, might be the leaning force on that one...Like, shoot-to-kill expendable?

I didn't think of that! THAT'S REALLY CREEPY. I have this proto-fic brewing of things that might have happened if Tony didn't make it back (like if they found Tony in the desert too late, and the only thing left of his genius is the ratty 'stache on his dissected corpse, and the glowing arc-reactor that's immediately co-opted by the government for military use, and Rhodes is in charge of its implementation and there's MASSIVE. MASSIVE guilt all around. but. you know, all of a sudden your idea is so. much. better.)

Tony tends to keep his best inventions close to his chest (har), and I'm guessing there are plenty of things in his mansion workshop that they've been petitioning to get a crack at for AGES. Maybe Obie struck a deal with a faction in the government that wants to continue the war (war = increased economy ala World War II, right? riiiight? Oh. wait.) and Obie agrees to turn over all of Tony's things once he comes into power in exchange for free under-the-table-weapons-dealing reign.

Oh maaaaan.

"wow, it would be great if he'd just die on one of these, because then there wouldn't be a question of who'd succeed him like there was with Howard"

OKAY. NOW MY BRAIN WENT EXPLODEY. This is going a long way to describe what "????" may have been in his plan. Because he tried this once before and missed the part where Howard (like you said) may not have been the best businessman ever, but he's still a genius, and had that one clause in a contract somewhere to cover his back. But the second time around Obie knows better, knows what to look for and damn. Howard might not have been the best dad ever, but he tried, on some level, to look out for his kid. Or maybe just his inventions, but he trusts a 10 year old more than Obie and that's got hurt Ol' Obie a lot too. Man, I'm starting to feel a little for him too.

Okay. My brain is blown. You win.

(ps. I'm friending you so you can see the Epic Post, Part Dos that I had to lock for fear of RL work people. you totally don't have to friend back, but there's some epic meta talk going on there too that you might like)

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[quigonejinn.livejournal.com]

Both of you are bitches because now, I can't stop thinking about the equity structure of Stark Industries, and how this might actually work.

WARNING. LEGAL GEEKERY AHEAD. IGNORE. IGNORE. IGNORE. OF NO INTEREST TO ANYBODY BUT ME.

I mean, OK. That's what Obediah has to be out for, even more than the life insurance and inheriting Pepper as his PA. XD He wants Tony's control of Stark Industries, and we know that Stark Industries is publicly traded, which means that for Tony probably has some kind of super-majority of the voting stock. Enough so that if he wanted to, he could make Butterfingers to the Board.

As far as my feeble brain goes, there're two general ways Obediah thinks he can get his hands on those shares if Tony dies -- straight-up inheritance through Tony's will (because he does have a will, and Pepper is probably going to get enough money to keep her in cabana boys and heels for the rest of her life, but the rest of it is going to Obie), but you'd get a bitchin' tax consequences, and both Tony and Howard would have hired better lawyers than that.

My best guess: for tax purposes, Howard, while alive, probably put his interest in Stark Industries in some kind of trust "for Tony" or "for the family." He controls it while he's alive as the trustee, with a provision that when he kicks the bucket, trusted family friend Obediah will watch over the trust with the obligation of furthering Tony's interests. Hah. Howard kicks the bucket; for two glorious years, Obediah is the successor trustee, but then, the lawyers give him a nasty shock when they explain that when Tony hits twenty-one, voting control transfers over to him. Which he does, essentially yanking the company out from under Obie.

But. Since the shares remain fundamentally in the trust, if Tony dies, there isn't anybody to exercise the rights, and they go back to the trustee.

There'd definitely be shenangans with holding and shell companies named ludicrously funny things. PLus, if it's purely "for the family," then if Tony dies, the trust might cease to have a purpose. But there's gotta be a way around it, and yeah, it's gotta work something like that.

NOW TO TRY AND NOT GET FIRED.

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[dafnap.livejournal.com]

WARNING. LEGAL GEEKERY AHEAD. IGNORE. IGNORE. IGNORE. OF NO INTEREST TO ANYBODY BUT ME.

THIS IS ALL MY MOM TALKS ABOUT OVER DINNER WHEN I'M HOME. I'm getting squiggy warm family flashbacks :D

There'd definitely be shenanigans with holding and shell companies named ludicrously funny things.

Oh, that's just a glorious thought. That Obie took advantage of one of the many tax-shelter, shell companies to use for the under-the-table weapons dealing shenanigans.

I know we've been working under the Obie-Killed-Howard assumption for awhile now, but I'm kind of digging the idea that it wasn't planned. That Obie didn't start off with the "Hey, I know a perfect solution to my problem...Murder!"

Because this:

Howard kicks the bucket; for two glorious years, Obediah is the successor trustee, but then, the lawyers give him a nasty shock when they explain that when Tony hits twenty-one, voting control transfers over to him.

The implication that maybe Obie sort of fell in love with total power then, and that working with Tony (who, lets face it, is two parts ridiculous to one part pathetically puppy-like when it comes to looking-up to his father) has got to be frustrating after having been the king for awhile. Here's this young, 21 year old upstart who never properly matured because, hello, a doctorate in his teens? Is still a doctorate, and even older people sort of break apart during that time, no telling how a kid with crazy hormones, strange hair growing in places he doesn't understand and no stable home-life to speak of, will come out. Certainly not with an ego that's easy to work with.

...which brings back our, like, SUPER EARLY conversation about how maybe Tony drove Obie slowly crazy and carried him straight to "Murder: for what ails you!" when no other legal/sane solution seemed possible.

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[besyd.livejournal.com]

He wants Tony's control of Stark Industries

But! I found it so fascinating that Tony said "we own controlling interest" ... and seemed to include Pepper, though he probably just meant himself and Obie. So it would seem that Obie, of course, wants it all to himself. And therefore if Pepper was included in Tony's statement, then Obie would either have to take control over her or kill her too. (Wow! I hadn't thought of that before.)

I also had a fascination with her sitting there on the couch working - or pretending to work - on her laptop while Tony and Obie talked. Like she was (used to) being Tony's buffer or watchdog or something. And how pissed Tony got when she seemed to side with Obie twice. In fact, he was looking at her when he said "Screw this" and got up to leave.

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[obsession-inc.livejournal.com]

::gape::

YOU ARE PHENOMENAL. Do not get fired. THIS IS GENIUS.

Enough so that if he wanted to, he could make Butterfingers to the Board.

You are making me think terrible things about Caligula now and I can see the TONY STARK, EMPEROR OF ROME thing spinning out in front of me. Except instead of his favorite horse, his favorite robotic arm. OF COURSE.

That's what Obediah has to be out for, even more than the life insurance and inheriting Pepper as his PA.

You will have no idea why I'm laughing so hard at this, but I actually was writing a whole mumblesheet today on Obadiah and his thoughts on Pepper Potts. So this made me giggle. ANYWAY MOVING ON.

My point being that considering that my parents, the midwestern public school teachers, could get that sort of thing set up (they don't understand it, but they like it!), I am completely and totally positive that you're right about the trust. And that is FANTASTIC.

There'd definitely be shenangans with holding and shell companies named ludicrously funny things.

Oh God. Now I'm wracking my brain for funny shell company names. I mean, it would be one thing if it as TONY naming them, but Obadiah is a man who rides a Segway NON-IRONICALLY.

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[besyd.livejournal.com]

I have this proto-fic brewing of things that might have happened if Tony didn't make it back

Ooh ... that would make for a great 5-things or some such.

(And my offer stands to you to ... if you need a beta ... I come with references ... etc, etc.)

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[besyd.livejournal.com]

Add in that, knowing Tony, he may well have skipped some of these trips at the last minute in the past. Obadiah has got to have serious ulcers by now. I could almost feel BAD for him.

Heh. You have a point there.

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[obsession-inc.livejournal.com]

You totally know he did. A great and wondrous comedy could be written about the times that Obadiah tried to bump him off before and it got screwed up due to the fact that Tony is a magnificent flake.

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[besyd.livejournal.com]

A great and wondrous comedy could be written about the times that Obadiah tried to bump him off before and it got screwed up due to the fact that Tony is a magnificent flake.

I love this idea!

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[besyd.livejournal.com]

how adorable was Pepper's interaction with Coulson at the plant? "Oooh. Is that a super-high tech lock picking thing?" Because she's been around Tony long enough to find machines neeeeeeeat

It was adorable! I also think that early on in their working relationship, Tony sat her down and told her to ask him any time she didn't understand something. (He probably either thought it was really "cool" that she was interested at all in his stuff or he jumped at the attention, at the lifeline that someone-not-an-engineer could be and was interested in him) Because I also loved in the scene with her sticking her hand in his chest that she asked what Operation was ... and even though he brushed her question off then (because, um, time of the essence), I just got the feeling that she never hesitated to ask when he said or did something she didn't understand. Which I thought was cool. :^)

Maybe those are the papers Pepper had him sign before she hustled him out? (Oh, man, poor PEPPER.)

Oh shit! I hate that thought! No, Pepper, don't figure that one out! That would hurt her so much. (Fic Bunny # ...) (Which kinda goes along with Fic Bunny # 192: What kind of PTSD reaction does Pepper have because of (a) being almost killed by Iron Monger and (b) having to push the button and thinking she'd killed Tony. Because that is one of the most powerful things in the movie, to me. That she did push the button when she truly thought it would kill him.) (And Fic Bunny #193: What kind of injuries did Pepper have to heal from, what with all that falling glass, falling monster, and explosions? I mean really, did she get out of and far away from the building, hide in an explosion-proof bunker, or what?)

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[dafnap.livejournal.com]

Because that is one of the most powerful things in the movie, to me.

RIGHT? God, and she did it anyway. Because Pepper is damn good at her job, and despite almost jumping his bones earlier that week, she's more than able to press the button that (with the information available to her at that moment) was sure to kill him. Because Pepper is Ms. Compartmentalization and managed to set aside her personal feelings to save the day.

I don't think Tony could do what she did at the moment, at all. Because Tony takes everything personally. He's the type of personality that believes if you want something done right, you do it yourself, which is why he can make that immediate mental leap to building the damn suit and trying to become a superhero in the first place, and why he's also a little suicidal, because he asked Pepper to kill him, which wow. PTSD like WOAH.

I mean really, did she get out of and far away from the building, hide in an explosion-proof bunker, or what?

AHAHAHA. I KNOW. I still haven't been able to properly figure out how she survived that yet. But then again, I haven't yet reconciled myself with the physics of the movie that allows Tony to survive crash landing in the desert with the bucket of bolts that was the Mark I, much less slamming face first into a concrete beam during the repulsor test and emerging free of any broken bones.

Oi. I'm stressing over the physics of a superhero movie. This is not a healthy sign.

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[besyd.livejournal.com]

PTSD like WOAH.

Yep. Night terrors while dozing on the couch ... sending Tony into utter panic the first time she screams or can't wake up.

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[obsession-inc.livejournal.com]

eeeeee, AWESOME. I am down with that. Angst is to be had for the taking in this fandom, I swear. I LOVE IT.

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[obsession-inc.livejournal.com]

Because that is one of the most powerful things in the movie, to me. That she did push the button when she truly thought it would kill him.

Okay, and also (this is like the first chance I have had to talk about this stuff out with other fans and I am LOVING THIS), Pepper is, like, crazy protective of Tony. Really, really, really protective. She follows him regardless of what he asks her to do on a moral level (oh dear lord, "taking out the trash"-- she's protecting him FROM THE CONSEQUENCES OF HIS OWN ACTIONS, then and a lot of other times), but the one time she threatens to quit, it's because he's putting himself in mortal danger and asking her to help him and she seriously cannot deal.

Which leads me to the point in which I figure well, you do not appear to be a crazy person, and I want other IM people helping me hash out my fic, so I am going to friend you back. (Oh please don't be crazy. Or mean. Or a giant robot.)

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[besyd.livejournal.com]

(Oh please don't be crazy. Or mean. Or a giant robot.)

Bwahahahaha ...

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[besyd.livejournal.com]

Pepper is, like, crazy protective of Tony. Really, really, really protective.

Yes! Totally. (See my comment about her sitting on the couch when Obie came over, brought pizza, played piano, and generally ruined Tony's evening. (Actually, I still think Pepper ruined it, but ...))

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[besyd.livejournal.com]

it makes no sense whatsoever for Tony's rresponse to being locked up with missle parts is to build a walking suit of plate armor with a side-arm firethrower action

Who was it that brought up the idea that he and Rhodey had doodled that suit thing back at MIT? And how can anyone begin to imagine what goes 'round in that man's head? (And a flamethrower could, conceivably, maybe take out more of the SI weapons cached there than simple missile launchers.)

I mean, really, would it be that hard to lace Tony's whiskey with some weapons-grade animal tranquilizers?

Okay. Crap. That's just scary.

The babyfic is already out there

Oh yeah. I've already read one (it didn't suck, actually) ... and found a reference to another (it sounded awful - but then, more power to people who write and post, y'know).

And as for Tony's fathering abilities, I think with the right set of circumstance, life choices, woman (the mother), etc, he'd probably be great. But it would take a lot to get him there. A lot of positive and a lot of negative. Which could make for some fascinating character study. (And fortunately since it would be in fic, no child would actually be harmed or maimed for life.) (But this? Is not one of my Fic Bunnies.)

(Edited to fix coding so this whole post didn't show up in italics. Yeesh.)

Re: second time through = golden. i'm thinking about going time #3.

[obsession-inc.livejournal.com]

I actually said to my husband after the movie that there's one thing we know: Tony's not suicidal. Crazy, but not suicidal. Because if he WAS, he would have calmly taken every bit of stuff those guys handed him to make the missile, and made a gigantic fucking bomb, and obliterated the entire mountain with them AND HIMSELF inside of it. So in a way, they're lucky that he only decided to build a huge flamethrowing robot body; some of them survived.