quigonejinn: (hornblower - my heart at service)
quigonejinn ([personal profile] quigonejinn) wrote2006-01-05 09:19 pm

Undertow.

Apologies for trampling on the timeline of the peace of Lieutenant Hornblower, general notions of weather, basic geography, naval tradition, and common sense, as well as a lovely fic of the same name by a friend of mine. And yeah. The first dozen fics or so of mine in a fandom are always kind of rough and overstuffed.



The first time did not, in fact, happen in Kingston.

Kingston, after all, had been a good time, a happy time -- two hard days and two harder nights in the greatest English port city in the West Indies, and Bush spent the equivalent of nine months pay in somewhat less than seventy two hours. He had been trapped in port, away from the sea, for weeks. He had survived the ministrations of Dr. Clive and Dr. Sankey, as well as a formal board of inquiry, and he felt, on a level that he could barely recognize, let alone articulate, the need to celebrate, so he gleefully drank a quarter of his prize money, fucked half of it, and lost the remainder at the game tables.

The last morning of the leave, Bush woke on the floor of a brothel house. He was fully dressed; his hat was set on the floor next to him, but he didn't think he would ever be able to fit it on his aching head again, and when he looked up to see who was laughing so loudly at him, he found Horatio grinning down at him, holding the very end of one of his ridiculous guinea cigars, looking every inch the commander while wearing only his white shirt.

...

The first time had, instead, come during difficult times. Bush was in Portsmouth to draw his half-pay; he was staying with Horatio in Mrs. Mason's attic, and they were sitting on Horatio's bed in the half dark of a candle burnt down to the nub.

There was an unspoken agreement that it would be undignified to go on talking after the candle went out. There was no reason, after all, for them to be talking for so long -- there was no ship's business to talk about, precious little news about the war, and they had already covered the sum of their combined knowledge in the first two hours after Bush had received his pay. Talking about the sea was certainly pleasurable, but after a particular point, discussing about storms they had seen or novel problems of sail they had pondered was like picking at a sore tooth or a half-healed wound. With the situation that they were both in, it was painful to think of being at sea.

Bush did not want to go back to his bed on the other side of the room. Horatio did not want him to go. They were Navy officers without either ships or war, and to save himself from having to leave, as much to give himself an excuse to stay close as out of real physical desire, Bush leaned forward and stroked the side of Horatio's neck.

He had not meant to touch Horatio like he would a woman, but it happened. It was the gentlest way that he knew to touch someone, and after it, Horatio was on him, teeth and teeth and body against body and the cot rattling and thumping so loud that they had to take it to the floor.

The candle was almost entirely gone by that point. It went out at some point afterwards; Bush could not remember when, precisely, because after they were on the floor Horatio leaned back to strip off his nightshirt, and Bush followed him up so they were kneeling in front of each other on the floor. Bush remembered groping his way to Hornblower in the darkness, orienting himself by finding collarbone, armpit, and rib, and then laying himself against Horatio in the darkness.

It felt strange to be with someone taller than he was; Horatio's mouth was hot and soft where there were no teeth, and there was also strange pleasure in running his hand over Hornblower's back and feeling soft hair that curled as easily as a girl's lying on top of the skin, stuck to it sweat, and then to feel hard muscle and harder bone underneath. Scars. Spine. It was like feeling your way up some small, particularly intimate bit of rigging, and it was strange, too, to be with another person and finish because of a hand.

No softness, very little heat, mostly pressure and this low sound that Bush had first heard when he was on the deck of Renown and Horatio was snarling with impatience over a matter of rigging.

There was no war, Bush told himself as he came with bone-rattling suddenness. They were not at sea. That was the point. There had been no sodomy, and it had only been a candle.

...

In what would have been the second time, they were preparing to round the Cape of Good Hope. The storms lay ahead; Bush had been overseeing the last of the preparations, and making one last reading of the quarterbill assignments. Now, he was having a last meal before the dirty weather -- if the food wasn't quite hot, at least it was warmish, better than wardroom food, since the captain's range was the last cooking fire to be put out on the ship.

The steward had cleared away the plates, and it was time for Bush to be going back to his hammock to snatch some sleep before he would be needed again. There also was no imminent action facing them, no battles to be fought, no frigates to cut out, so Horatio was not in one of his moods where he was willing to ask for company. There really was no reason for Bush to be there, in fact; Horatio had been, despite the invitation, silent throughout the meal.

Thinking, Bush expected. It was the mark of a man bound for the Admiralty. For greatness.

He pushed his chair back to show Horatio that he was ready to leave when his captain wanted him too. He half-rose, too, and then, all of a sudden, Horatio reached forward, almost double, turned the hand that Bush had on the table palm up, and kissed it.

There was no symbolism in it as it was the palm and not the back of the hand. Bush would not have recognized it anyways -- it was a captain with gold on his shoulders, after all, and even beyond that, it was Horatio. There would never be a question of it.

Nevertheless, he froze where he was, half-standing, half-sitting. Now, Horatio had taken Bush's second finger into his mouth. His tongue slid over the calluses and found the skin that was still sensitive in between the calluses. Pressed itself there, turned Bush's palm around so that the other fingers spanned his cheek, and now, he was nipping at the skin between thumb and pointing finger. Bush had the vague impression that he was biting his own lip, and now, Horatio was taking the knuckle of Bush's thumb into his mouth. He was holding it with his teeth while he worked tongue against it, and when Horatio looked up through the fingers that Bush had lying against his cheek and his brow, Bush finally came undone.

There was the long nose and the brown eyes. The calm, diffident expression that Horatio only used when he was struggling with terrible emotion, and there, it slipped a little just now when Bush's finger touched his cheek. Worry. A little fear. Terrible worry, terrible strain. Horatio had not told Bush where exactly the Admiralty ordered them, but he had let slip that they were not to come within sight of land after clearing the Cape until they had crossed the entirety of the Atlantic. It would be dead reckoning for more than two thousand miles, and Horatio's cheek was smoother than that of a captain about to round the Cape of Storms should be.

Hornblower's mouth had been so warm, too -- the heat had travelled straight up Bush's arm, into his cheeks. It had to be why his own cheeks were so hot. He was burning under his uniform, in fact, and that look, that slip just now. It had never been a question of forgiving Horatio for the tantrums. The thought had never entered his head as being necesary, and now, God help him, Horatio had lifted up the sleeve and the slight fringe of lace and was kissing his wrist. No tongue, but those lips were damp from before, and the laws of the Admiralty and the laws of God notwithstanding, Bush would have let his captain take him where he stood.

Over the dinner table. Against the stern windows if he'd wanted, so long as it was his captain.

It would likely have happened, too, if the steward hadn't chosen that minute to slip in with the last hot water on board for when the captain should go to bed.

...

Bush was not close to either his sisters or his mother. They drew half his pay but only an infinitesmal portion of his heart -- he began working days and sleeping nights at a blacksmith uncle's at eleven, left Chichester as a midshipman when he was fifteen, and had not returned at all until he was a lieutenant at twenty-three. The time at the blacksmith uncle's was how he acquired the base for the calluses that Hornblower admired every now and then; the time away in general was why he slept twelve hours a night and weeded the garden, as far away from the house and their chattering and doting as possible, a month after a black frost.

When Bush saw trees, he wondered whether they would make spars. When he saw wheels, he expected them to guide the course of ships. The only time he ever really used the word beautiful was to describe a particularly well-built vessel -- or his ship, really, as any ship that he had put his sweat into, any ship that he had ridden out a storm with or had felt flying across the water, automatically became beautiful to him.

Maria reminded him of his second sister. Her mother looked much like the second wife of his blacksmith uncle.

Lady Barbara, on the other hand, was almost beautiful. She was like Hornblower in that way.

...

When it finally did happen, Hornblower was still a captain. He had not yet received his promotion to commodore, but was in Sheerness on some pretext or the other -- he needed new uniforms or something of the sort, but even Bush could see that it was a pretext.

Horatio had never been particularly good at lying, after all, and he seemed physically disturbed by the fact of walking through Sheerness out of his uniform. Blue and gold everywhere, black at the throat, a splash of white at the breast, and the clatter of swords against officer legs. Navy on shore might have been on half-pay. The Navy at Sheerness was only a shadow of Portsmouth or the great dockyards, but it was nevertheles a Navy town, and when they had walked back from the office where Bush worked and the door of Bush's room was shut behind them, Horatio leaned close, and he touched the side of Bush's neck at the spot where the neckcloth ended, barely on the skin and just next to where a little white from the shirt underneath showed.

It was a strange moment. Bush had done something like that all those years ago when they had been half-pay lieutenants in Mrs. Mason's attic. Less delicacy because he did not have Horatio's long, elegant fingers, because he had never been married and had not touched a woman he had not paid beforehand in almost twenty years, but Horatio was so close now. Bush knew that there was plenty of space behind him. If he wanted, he could take a step backwards. Horatio could, even though he had always been the more slovenly dresser, pretend that he had just been straightening some item of Bush's dress, and they could get to talking about some of the sails that they could see in the windows or the noisiness of the street or anything, really.

They were old enough friends for that.

Even when at sea, Hornblower had been terrible about his uniform. Bush remembered his first impression of Hornblower while coming aboard the Renown: he thought that the welcoming lieutenant looked like he had put his clothes on in the dark, and perhaps Horatio now thought that this was how one started to have sex with Bush. By touching some part of his uniform. That this was how one courted William Bush.

Bush wished it were dark now so that he could pretend that was why he stepped forward, balanced on that stump leg a little, and he kissed Horatio.

...

There were, in Bush's lodgings, a table, two chairs, a bed, and a chest. Horatio's coat lay across one chair. Bush sat in the other; his coat and hat were on the chest. On the table, there was now a bottle of oil that Bush had gone out and bought from the apothecary -- it was quite likely scented, but he had been shaking too hard, had been too nervous to take proper note about it, and could only hope that it wasn't something embarrassing -- and there was a bottle of rum, two glasses, a pack of sugar, some lemon. A kettle of water for the rum.

Hornblower had not brought Brown, and they had also walked from the Naval offices back to Bush's lodgings, so there was no carriage idling tied up outside the boarding house. Bush was inexpressibly glad for this -- they were captain and captain, equals in rank, but Horatio was going to be raised to be a commodore or even higher soon. He was a Colonel of the Marines, a Knight of the Order of Bath, and a lump formed in Bush's throat as he watched Horatio strip off his shirt and stand there in breeches and stockings for a moment, then look up and try to hide his uncertainty about how to go on from there.

He was awkward about undressing -- perhaps it was because he had gotten used to having someone help him dress and undress, but perhaps not. His skin was still brown from the days drifting down the Loire, and Bush could remember lying on the grass in the mornings. Dew would be heavy on the tarp overhead, and Brown would be snoring on one side of him and Horatio would be lying on the other.

There would be the noise of the countryside around them. The sound of the river close by, perhaps the smell of their nighttime fire still on the air, and the birds starting in the distance. It was almost like being a boy back in the cottage again, and whenever he dared, Bush would sneak an arm underneath Hornblower's head so that his captain would not have to sleep entirely on the ground.

On those occaisions, Horatio would turn towards him as easily as a ship turning under wind, as easily as a child, Bush imagined, turned toward its mother. Horatio's hair tickling his jaw, the shape of Horatio's cheekbone and the weight of his head. The memory of that mouth, soft as a girl's, and as full of teeth as a wolf's. It felt almost sacrilegious to hold one's captain that way, but Horatio had never said anything, and now, in England and less than hour before, Horatio had asked, in his offhand way, while they were wrestling each other about the bed, if Bush had ever wanted to have him. And had awkwardly squirmed some and put Bush's arm around his waist so that Bush's fingers lay against his backside.

Bush had almost fallen off the bed.

In turn, Hornblower had turned red, sat up, and started to gather his things. Bush stood rooted, a few feet away as Horatio got his hat out from under the bed. He had flushed dark red, in fact, and was trying to keep his face from Bush as he looked for his hair-tie.

The chance would likely never come again. Horatio would be a commodore soon, an admiral after that, and only God knew what once he decided to take down his flag. He was married to a Wellesley, a Knight of the Order of the Bath, soon to be owner of a village named, if Bush remembered correctly, Smallbridge.

Somehow, the words got themselves out of Bush's throat. He had to go out and get a few things, but he would be back.

Horatio froze, looked up. His face had gone pale. Perhaps he was going to take it back now; he had been struggling with something on his shoes. Perhaps he had not meant it all along, and he would say that it had been a joke, but he did not, and after a moment where neither of them said anything or moved, Bush jammed his hat on his head and took his coat and left.

The oil on the table was for Horatio. The rum was for Bush himself. He remembered that, even as a lieutenant, Horatio had never been particularly fond of his spirit ration -- his captain, his beloved odd captain who would soon be a commodore and an admiral after that and who knew what and where after that.

Bush swallowed the rest of his rum, then stood and went over to him.

...

Two months later, notice came that Bush was to have command of the seventy-four Nonsuch bound for the Baltic, and Bush could not keep the smile off of his face when he saw his commodore climbing up the side of the ship. He tried to be solemn while he welcomed Horatio aboard and shook his hand, but he could not quite manage it, and seeing Horatio smile back at him made him feel as warm and strong as if he were twenty-three again and newly in possession of his commission.

Horatio never offered again, and they never spoke of what had happened. In fact, because of the exigencies of service and the necessary distance between a commodore and a post captain, from Portsmouth to Le Havre and until Caudebec, after that welcoming handshake, they barely touched.

...

Perhaps, in the end, it was only love as one friend felt for another, but in the end for Bush and for a long time for Horatio, there was so little love and so little that was purely good in the rest of their lives that it did not matter.






And I think I finally figured out why I love a freaking Linkin Park Horatio Hornblower vid I mean, sure, it's Linkin Park, and sure it's NUMB of all songs by them, but the brilliant editing of the video presents a version of Bush and Horatio that looks and feels and breathes very, very, very close to the book dynamic -- the tension that exists between Bush and Hornblower because they're friends in addition to being captain and first lieutenant. The difficulty that Horatio has keeping himself under control so that he doesn't take things out on Bush more than he does already. The fact that there are times when he has to hurt Bush's feelings in order to do his duty as a captain, the fact that Bush has a duty to remain Hornblower's "pillar of strength" as he was during Hornblower's wedding, where he was acting as a friend and not a subordinate, despite the hurt.

Horatio gets to turn his back to Bush and take a deep breath and clasp his hands to compose himself, but Bush, well. He only gets a moment to drop his eyes and master himself. He has to follow where Horatio leads. And Horatio not only knows it, but he also demands it.

Their relationship is an immensely complicated mess of duty and affection and sacrifice in the books. It's not captured in fic very much, but the video nails it. It even answers, in a way, the question of why Bush and Hornblower stick together despite the difficulties -- I mean, it's not that there's lack of real affection underneath, but it's incredibly hard to have a change a friendship that started out as Bush and Horblower's did, as lieutenants and co-conspirators and mutual survivors.

There are times when you're reading the books, and you just wonder why in God's name they even try to be friends if Horatio keeps snarling at Bush like that and if Bush keeps exposing (at least in Hornblower's head) his commanding officer's vulnerabilities. Horatio and Bush are tough men, and yeah, you can say that the affection betwene them is strong enough to keep them together, but I wonder, and the vid ends with a beautiful shot of their ship sailing into the snow andthe coulds.

The only thing in sight is the ship. The only thing that really looks as though it's movingon the ship is the British flag, and the answer that springis pretty clear: duty and terrible loneliness.

... of course, I'm pretty sure that if [livejournal.com profile] black_hound ever reads this post, she's going to be like, "WTFever, you dumb bitch. :D."

Re: Undertow (HH)

[identity profile] nindulgence.livejournal.com 2006-01-13 10:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you--and goodness, please don't have any more fits about HH-fic-posting: your writing here is thoughtful and refreshing.

I always worry that if I post them public, people will take them the wrong way, but yeah.

They were a bit cheeky *g*--but I do believe that, on entering a new fandom, identifying the things that don't work for you in its body of fanfic is a necessary first step in coming up with stories that are truly original and personal. Facing fanfic cliches head-on and working to subvert them can be a very fruitful creative approach, and I look forward to more of it from you.

~

Re: Mutual Admiration Society

[identity profile] nindulgence.livejournal.com 2006-01-13 10:03 pm (UTC)(link)
He lurks around the edges of my stuff, sulking.

*sporfle*

~
ext_8683: (Bush name to the right)

Re: what do you mean the compression ratios are off? i thought bush was just sucking in his cheeks.X

[identity profile] black-hound.livejournal.com 2006-01-13 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)
*starts babbling*

The vidding thing? They take me a long time because there is so much hair-splitting. For that vid I was left with the prospect of slowing everything down exponentially in places because the expressions I wanted were lasting a couple of seconds at most. Which means you have to get clever, aka ZOMG I'M DOOOOMED!! And the only way I could make that work was with the slow dissolves and running clips backwards and crap like that.

I also held all the snowstorm footage for the end thinking I had lots and lots and no worries. (And also it wouldn't integrate well with the other footage because of the totally different lighting.) Well screw me. *G* I had to repeat pieces over and over flipping them and running them backwards and stuff to make it work. Fortunately it did work.

And it's so different from art. With art my goal is to crystallize a whole bunch of storytelling down into one frozen moment. And ya know -- HH and WB have been really elusive for me. I can do them up separately and pair Bush up with other people but jamming them together has not been a rip-roaring success so far. I think it's because defaulting Bush with movieverse characters is cleaner because it's a much thinner universe to my eyes. The books are info dense and there are a crapload of them so the relationship with HH is goddamned tricky to get down into 25 words or less. And I'm not sure even after a gazillion rereadings that I really have all of it.

But I'm gonna try them again. I've reread Undertow like 234897192873 times and it does not pale with the rereading and I'm hoping it can in some way give me the kick in the ass I need to make some HH/WB art that is worth a shit.

*stops babbling*

[identity profile] randomalia.livejournal.com 2006-01-13 11:32 pm (UTC)(link)
*___________*
I'm not much acquainted with book-Bush as yet, but this felt so like him, and so quiet and...just really captured the long passing of time and the distance he and H. hold between them, as well as the love. The ending was a particularly elegant insight. :(

[identity profile] la-reine-bleu.livejournal.com 2006-01-13 11:50 pm (UTC)(link)
It's late, I'm tired, and words kinda not doing what I want them to. But just finished reading this and boy, what a treat of a fic. Really, loved both the characterisation and the snapshots in time you give of them - just lovely :-)
ext_8683: (Bush/Horatio yellow background)

Re: what do you mean the compression ratios are off? i thought bush was just sucking in his cheeks.X

[identity profile] black-hound.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 03:51 am (UTC)(link)
And also, OMFG that precious new boat. YES.

my blabber button is on, too. :D

[identity profile] quigonejinn.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 04:22 am (UTC)(link)
I'm watching the episode now, actually, and I'm just marvelling at how well put together the clips in your vid are. I swear to God that I could have watched those same exact scenes 3003030 times. The reptition works really well, actually, because there is a lot of circling and repeating with book Horatio/Bush, and yeah. I would never, ever, ever have thought of putting them together that way and to such moody, intense music.

God, I love that video. *_* I had it queued in Winamp on repeat for about 95% of the time that I was writing this fic, and I ended up lifting the title from that one line that's like, "Caught in the undertow, caught in the undertow." *_*

And while I'm FREAKING YOU OUT with my previously hidden fangirliness, I might as well admit this, too. Tbe picture of Bush that you have up in this post is pretty much my favorite piece of fandom artwork.

It's just fantastic -- the v. period pose, the classic work for the eyes, the fact that Bush himself would probably rather face down a battery with a lee shore than sit and have something like that made of him. I've spent entirely too much time dreaming away at all the different ways that picture could have come into existence in the canon Hornblower universe. One of Bush's sisters drew it as a grown-up replacement for that miniature painting! Maria drew it during that long boring winter and gives it to Horatio when he goes back after Caudebec! Lady Barbara did it one day out of sheer, stifling boredom because she couldn't really quite well make Horatio sit for her and that's why Bush was sitting at her feet that one time we hear him talking to her about how great Horatio is and how he's just like Nelson -- she was drawing him on deck, and well, the light was starting to go, but she didn't want to go down below yet, so she decided to kill two birds with one stone and ask him about the one thing that she knew he'd have a wealth of conversation stored up for!

Etc, etc, etc. So yes. I love that picture beyond all rational words.

And yeah. Bush/Horatio is excruciatingly hard to write. They change so much in the coure of the books. *_* I'm glad, though, that Undertow is being helpful in some way. It's still a really unsatisfying thing to me because the middle is all muddled and the language isn't as crisp as it should be in certain places. We'll just have to both keep plugging at it, eh?

there are a crapload of them so the relationship with HH is goddamned tricky to get down into 25 words or less

It's probably the fact that I'm braindead, but why 25 words or less?

[identity profile] quigonejinn.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 04:27 am (UTC)(link)
Horatio is so fucking obsessed with the fact that he can't contribute anything to the building of that boat, and Bush is obviously just having a grand ol' time. I mean, Horatio gets to supervise the baking of the biscuits, but uh.

WHY IN THE NAME OF GOD IS THERE NOT MORE FIC ABOUT THAT PERIOD? WHY? Horatio is at his most emo and approachable there, and BUSH is there and you can talk about Hornblower's issues with women and he's at such a vulnerable spot in his life and ;lkgj;dlh;lkj.

Re: Undertow (HH)

[identity profile] quigonejinn.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 04:37 am (UTC)(link)
Ahaha. You make it sound like it's actually legitimate and not just, you know. A cranky bitch mouthing off about things she doesn't know anything about and being bitter/ungrateful over a fandom that hasn't a damn thing wrong to her.

Thanks again for all the kindness. I'll definitely try to keep a better handle on my OMFG THIS SUCKS THIS SUCKS THIS SUCKS DELETE trigger. <3



Re: Mutual Admiration Society

[identity profile] quigonejinn.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 04:42 am (UTC)(link)
Hey! Hey! He wouldn't be Horatio if he didn't sulk and stomp and make horrid facial gesticulations!

Actually, I suspect that I kinda feel about Archie the way that you feel about Horatio. I keep trying to work my way into his head and take him seriously, but it's ridiculously hard to strike the right tone. Half the time, I'm like, "STOP BEING SO CULTURED; NOBODY UNDER THE AGE OF 45 NEEDS TO REFERENCE DANTE, BUNYAN, AND SHAKESPEARE IN THE SPACE OF THREE EPISODES" and the other time, I want to hit him for being so crazy and reckless and working out his issues from prison/Simpson.

So yeah. I've decided that I'm going to learn to write Archiefic if it kills me. Swear to God I will.

Re: Undertow (HH)

[identity profile] commodorified.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 04:48 am (UTC)(link)
Ahaha. You make it sound like it's actually legitimate and not just, you know. A cranky bitch mouthing off about things she doesn't know anything about and being bitter/ungrateful over a fandom that hasn't a damn thing wrong to her.

No, trust me, we've HAD those. You are not it.

You were extremely clear that those were the rules you thought were good for you.

Me, I break some of them, agree with others, and have a bunch you don't.

Makes for a wider variety of good fic, and this can only be of the good.

Since in fact, as you may have noticed, there really is only one hard-and-fast HH fandom rule: thou shalt keep BH happy so she will draw us porn. :)

PS: the look that b gives maria & momma when him and h come home from the long rooms? PRICELESS

[identity profile] quigonejinn.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 04:49 am (UTC)(link)
Poor Bush. I keep reading these stories about how cute and loving and sweet his family in Chichester is and how he dotes on them, and I'm like *_* do you really think Bush deals well with onshore life? That he spends all that time home weeding the garden for fun? *_*

Anyways, I'm so, so, so glad you liked this.

[identity profile] quigonejinn.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 04:50 am (UTC)(link)
I'm really glad that the characterization didn't strike you as off -- it was my first time writing Bush, and he's my favorite character in the series, so I was like ;alkgh;aldif;wleijr AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH MUST NOT FUCK UP MUST NOT FUCK UP I HAVE FUCKED IT UP, HAVEN'T I?

Thanks for the lovely comment.

aye aye, sir. :D

[identity profile] quigonejinn.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 04:52 am (UTC)(link)
!!! Are your rules tucked somewhere? I'd love to read them if you cared to share.

Re: Mutual Admiration Society

[identity profile] commodorified.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 04:52 am (UTC)(link)
*nods* I think they are so very different it's almost impossible for one person to really get inside both of them. (insert Edrington joke about threesomes here)

I have noticed that most people who write H/A write appreciably more often and noticeably better from one POV than the other. This isn't a problem, I just notice it.

I mean, I can, if you actually want me to, rant about why I love Archie so utterly madly even though yes he does all that stuff, but only if you, you know, make an encouraging noise, 'cause nobody likes being preached at.

Re: Mutual Admiration Society

[identity profile] quigonejinn.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 04:57 am (UTC)(link)
Dude, yo. More than a noise over here. *looks for a plate to pass around for the collection*

(Though really, it's not entirely an issue of knowing why people adoring Archie -- my friend [Bad username or site: stella_ belli @ livejournal.com] once described him as the most endearing character in the entirety of the universe, and I agree. My sister was hitting me for squealing over Archie long before she started beating me for squealing over Horatio, but it's more that I can't get a hook into him. Like, I can't figure out what his driving motivation is and I can't figure out, in my head, a moment for him that we don't see onscreen but neverhteless encapsulates him.)

Re: aye aye, sir. :D

[identity profile] commodorified.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 04:59 am (UTC)(link)
You mean aside from Do It To Slutbunny? *g*

Some of them are in various fic commentaries we've done, and there were threads of character-geeking for Bush, Archie, and Edrington over in xxix, but there's no list as such.

Maybe we ought to start some threads in the various character comms...

Re: aye aye, sir. :D

[identity profile] commodorified.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 05:23 am (UTC)(link)
and also, Will Shetterly's Four Rules are, I feel, universally to be commended.

Re: Undertow (HH)

[identity profile] drbillbongo.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 03:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Naaah, believe me it's absolutely fine! :D I tend to do things like that, too - and worry about them. :D

Thanks for the compliment! There's a whole bunch of banners over at [livejournal.com profile] orlando_rants... :D

Re: aye aye, sir. :D

[identity profile] quigonejinn.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 08:52 pm (UTC)(link)
*happily reads*

You know, I'm always so impressed with people who are able to come up with such specific things about characters. I mean, I think I spend as much time obsessively speculating about Bush as anybody, but I swear to God that I couldn't come up with his preferred drink of source or the names of his sisters or anything nearly so clear and vivid.

"Uhhhhhhh. Rum like he's drinking in that one book when he shows up to tell Horatio about the treasure fleet? Whatever his superior officer is, um, drinking? And um. Uh. I bet his sisters have girl names! ENGLISH GIRL NAMES! YEAH!"

Re: Mutual Admiration Society

[identity profile] commodorified.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 09:48 pm (UTC)(link)
I keep trying to be brief, and I give up. I'm just going to write you a veritable essay.

Hmmm. I think these are the moments I find especially defining:

In the Duel: His over-the-top glee over having killed three men in his first boarding action.

When he panics in Frogs and Lobsters. So much so that there's a reference to it in the first Archie fic I ever wrote. You know, most people panic by running AWAY from trouble. Not by trying to kill it.

The way he reacts to the crew of the Renown over Wellard.

Driving motivation? I'm not sure he has one, unless it's to live and be as happy as he can and look after the people he cares about. Which is Horatio, always, but also Wellard, and Bush, and Matthews, and Styles, and Orrock.

Things I think are important about Archie:

He is not quite sane. He's broken in a way that you don't ever completely recover from.

One of the things I admire about ITV/A and E is that they avoided the action-hero trope where whatever happens to you you just bounce back as if nothing had happened.

I mean, they underplay it, they underplay it so much that I honestly think a lot of people miss it, but it's one hell of a list when you lay it out.

He's been abused by his own side (that he was raped it not canon. That he was physically abused is, and that Simpson's sadism is the sexual kind is established. Even if Simpson never actually risked hanging over it, that kind of thing leaves a mark.).
Then marooned. By his own side.
Then, prison. Somewhere in one of the books someone says 'better a Turkish Galley than a Spanish prison.'
He's been, canonically, tortured. Left in a hole in the ground until he couldn't walk, much less run.

At the end of all this, he's about 23.

He's always playing catch-up. When he was a young mid, and supposed to be learning his trade, there was Simpson. Later, there was prison. Somehow he passed his exam, but it must have been hellish.

He does not like or want pity, and he doesn't pity himself. He is, I think, rather ashamed for himself for not being more of a heroic type. And he's got a sense of humour, he's basically a cheerful sort. He doesn't brood overmuch, and he doesn't much like to dwell on what can't be changed.

He is, by his action and not his facial expressions, brave as all hell, and capable of ruthlessness on a scale that can even appall Horatio.

He is ferociously protective, not just of Horatio, but later of Wellard, Bush, his gun crew ...

Who was he before the Navy? I tend to think, solidly loved, or he wouldn't be functional at ALL. From a family neither rich nor poor. Able, as Heyer says, to command the elegancies of life, but not rolling in the stuff. Theatre-mad. A reader. Bright as heck. That's still there.

Is he a good naval officer? Not really. His respect for heirarchy is nil. He's insubordinate; he smarts off Edrington, he smarts off Bush...

His loyalties are exclusively personal, and for him, this makes sense; that's one of the things encountering something like Simpson at an early age will do to you, I think.

So, yeah. I babble, but basically, what I love about his is not that he's angsty and weepy and damaged -- he's not, actually, especially angsty or weepy, considering -- but that he's stunningly imperfect, even desperately damaged, and yet out of that he makes of himself a damned good man, one who does some incredibly brave things.

*falls finally, mercifully silent*

Re: aye aye, sir. :D

[identity profile] commodorified.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 10:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Also, I have friended you, because really, you must be stalked and poked regularly with sticks to encourage you to write as much more fic as possible. And it's just easier to do that if I friend you.

:)

this is quite possibly incoherent. *_*

[identity profile] quigonejinn.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 10:46 pm (UTC)(link)
HAH! *pokes you* MORE MORE MORE.

It's really, really, really interesting to hear what other people think of Archie, actually, and I'm really glad that I'm not the only one who's struck that ther'es something rather off-kilter about all those fics where Archie is the total pillar of mental health and Horatio is manic-depressive crazy.

Which isn't to say that Horatio isn't kind of nuts, but yeah.

I've been thinking a lotabout the subject of Archie's family recently -- like you point out, it's hard to think of any guy who wasn't rock-stable to start with surviving Simpson and prison, and the most likely reason for him to be that way would be because of a good, family loving, but it's interesting.

Because, I mean, there's that comment he makes to Horatio while he's showing him the lower decks. My hearing might be faulty, but doesn't he say something like, "As my father explained to his gillie, [insert stuff about how you can't kill a king.]" And assuming that they had him use gillie ~ the OED definition, that sort of suggests that Archie's father is no longer with his mother.

And then there's the fact that by confessing himself up to be a muniteer in the end, he's not exactly doing wonders for his name. Which suggests -- since we know that he has a father on land and alive in The Duel -- that he's valued the good he could do for Horatio's career/future against whatever shame his family might suffer and decided that Horatio is more important.

Which is totally understandable, but really, the combination of all suggests that Archie's character might stand up to some interesting family exploration. Any recommendations for fic about this? I've been looking for a good, thoughtful, convincing writeup of this sort on Archie, but I haven't come across it yet.

Also, re: Archie's Navy qualities. Yeaaaaaaah. I've been trying to write Archiefic recently, so I've been wondering how good a first lieutenant Archie would make for Horation in a LKU. He would have done his damndest, I'm sure, and he certainly seems bright enough to do all the work -- but man, he just seems a hell less suited for a lifetime of second-fiddlehood than Bush.

There's also this desperate quality to a lot of the couragethat he does show. I mean,he doesn't have Horatio's brain-driven, "this is what must happen for us to win" courage or Pellew's "this is how we will stand and bear until we die" courage or Bush's cool, impassive courage. There are, as you point out, moments when Archie is enormously brave, but sometimes -- I wonder how much of his respone to fear-provoking circumstances is kind of a panicky overreaction to all the terrible things that he's suffered and had to submit to. And hunh.

I bet that you could write a nifty little fic talking about how deeply and to heart Archie takes Horatio's little GET AHOLD OF YOURSELF MAN speech to him at the bridge. Like, contrast how Archie has that panic attack there to how calmly he goes to his death in Kingston? And use Horatio as the pivot-point.

Re: aye aye, sir. :D

[identity profile] quigonejinn.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 10:50 pm (UTC)(link)
I HAVE TOO MUCH FIC ON MY HANDS AS IT IS AND I HAVE THE TERRIBLE DESIRE TO SIGN UP FOR SOMETHING AT [livejournal.com profile] 1character AND *BAWLS*

But uh. *friends back gleefully*

Re: this is quite possibly incoherent. *_*

[identity profile] commodorified.livejournal.com 2006-01-14 11:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Hmm, never thought of that. I took it it was ghillie: attendant on a hunter. His gamekeeper, nore or less.

I bet that you could write a nifty little fic talking about how deeply and to heart Archie takes Horatio's little GET AHOLD OF YOURSELF MAN speech to him at the bridge. Like, contrast how Archie has that panic attack there to how calmly he goes to his death in Kingston? And use Horatio as the pivot-point.

Hmmm. I've sort of done that, but taking his rescue of Horatio as the pivot instead. I think that Archie doesn't, until that moment, believe in his own courage, or his own, well, manhood, to be archaic about it, but he IS archaic. In that era, that was manhood.

(Also, I think he'd infinitely rather hang than land in another French prison, so there is that.)

sometimes -- I wonder how much of his respone to fear-provoking circumstances is kind of a panicky overreaction to all the terrible things that he's suffered and had to submit to. And hunh.

In Duchess, quite a lot. In F and L, less so, but still noteably. By Mutiny and Retribution, I think rarely. When he goes off like that, he doesn't tend to make good decisions (cf starving himself to death so Horatio and the rest could get away, bombarding the French), wheras later he does what needs to be done whether he happens to be terrified (trying to protect Wellard) or not (tossing Bush off the cliff).

He's got some family background in stuff we're currently writing, but not a fic about it as such, no, though Widget did some AUs speculating on a non-naval Archie that do have some of that.

And you have inspired me to go write up my Rule. Singular, I realize to my shock :)

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